Video Games

Darth Rabbitt · Post by **Darth Rabbitt** » Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:54 pm

So essentially Sony and Microsoft have switched places from their positions in the last console war?

The XBOX 1 is the PS3 and the PS4 is the XBOX 360?

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:19 pm

Darth Rabbitt wrote:So essentially Sony and Microsoft have switched places from their positions in the last console war?

The XBOX 1 is the PS3 and the PS4 is the XBOX 360?

Looks like.

Guyr Adamantine · Post by **Guyr Adamantine** » Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:53 pm

And nothing of value was lost.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:10 am

Not sure how to react to the new MGS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6WgLOjKxmI

Open world might make things more tedious. Then again, people have tried enough games in this kind of setting that the big mistakes have probably already been made. And I don't actually play Metal Gear games generally, just follow good LPs. I hope things stay at least as ridiculous as usual.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:16 am

Avoraciopoctules wrote:Not sure how to react to the new MGS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6WgLOjKxmI

Open world might make things more tedious. Then again, people have tried enough games in this kind of setting that the big mistakes have probably already been made. And I don't actually play Metal Gear games generally, just follow good LPs. I hope things stay at least as ridiculous as usual.

It'll be good, MGS3 had the most open feeling, and if you're always on the lookout for enemies, it becomes an enjoyable ride, like hiking through the woods. Kojima does a great job of directing his team to create a wonderful ambiance.

Also some of my thoughts on the trailer, possible character reveal:

http://art-eater.com/2013/06/metal-gear ... -analysis/

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:17 am

I'm not sure if the PS4 can beat the XboxOne just yet though

Like right now, most non-gamers I know are pretty interested in the TV and sports features of the XB1, and see the PS4 as "only plays games". The PS4 may have won over the internet hardcore, but they are hardly the majority. That is a bit worrisome.

E3 has convinced me to get a PS4 and Wii-U though!

Sigil · Post by **Sigil** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:24 pm

Even if it's only the "internet hardcore" that are currently the ones that care about this, they're pretty vocal, and it includes the people in the game journalism industry. That much negative press among gaming sites will bleed over into the normal media if it keeps up, especially if people keep saying stuff like this. Everybody knows that mainstream news folk pretty much just google the topic and regurgitate whatever pops up.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:28 pm

All the folks I've asked don't like the trade-in policy and don't like the Kinect.

I really do think the Xbone shot itself in the foot.

Shrapnel · Post by **Shrapnel** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:39 pm

What I want to know is this: When the Xbone (awesome name, Maxus) comes around, does that mean that all support (internet, Live, etc.) for the 360 will go piff poof paff in wisp of smoke, making it a useless doorstop?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:41 pm

Shrapnel wrote:What I want to know is this: When the Xbone (awesome name, Maxus) comes around, does that mean that all support (internet, Live, etc.) for the 360 will go piff poof paff in wisp of smoke, making it a useless doorstop?

Probably not immediately. They did it to the Xbox several years after the Xbox 360 came out.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:04 pm

Shrapnel wrote:What I want to know is this: When the Xbone (awesome name, Maxus) comes around, does that mean that all support (internet, Live, etc.) for the 360 will go piff poof paff in wisp of smoke, making it a useless doorstop?

I can't take credit for the name. Heard someone else say it

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:58 pm

If I get a new console, it's probably going to be a 3DS. Unless the Wii U comes out with some really compelling games, I'm not even going to go for that.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:03 pm

My concern is, affording a good PC to play games, I hear top of the line nowadays is gonna set you back $900-1200 or so. Thusly, PS4 as a choice becomes a bit appealing there, which to me, just causes some confusion, as I "know" that PC is the best way going forward for our video game future (this is basically our last console cycle for most part, Nintendo aside).

I do regret though, that they made Dead Rising 3 exclusive to Xbox One..man, I really like that series (sighs).

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:24 pm

The correct price comparison is not price of console vs price of desktop PC - you're going to own a desktop PC either way, because this is 2013, so the correct price comparison is price of console vs (price of gaming PC - price of whatever computer you would buy otherwise).

Then you get into peripherals for the devices like more controllers and whatnot, as well as their online services, and that's conservatively 250-400 dollars over the lifetime of the console that you simply wouldn't have on PC (unless you buy a decent number of SUPER AWESOME GAMER keyboards and mice).

And after that, there's the pricetags on games. The shift to $60 is pretty much ubiquitous on consoles, and merely common for AAA titles on PC. But on PC, there is also a lot higher volume of games in the 20-40 range, and digital distributors are having sales all the time and that's much easier to take advantage of. Unless you buy lots of and almost nothing but big AAA titles on release date (in which case, you obviously aren't that worried about prices, are you?), PC is the clear winner here.

The only real "downside" to PC is that the technology advances, meaning your PC will be outdated faster than your console will, and you might need to upgrade it. But on the flipside, the practice of console porting (and in general, a levelling out of graphical advances as we approach the limits of what people give a shit about) is acting as a pretty good (but not perfect) brake on the ramping up of system requirements. If I were genuinely worried about getting the most for the least amount of money, I'd wait somewhere in the vicinity of 3-6 months after the release of the Ps4/XboxOne and then buy a $1200 gaming PC. Which might actually end up being what I do, and treating myself to a newer, bigger monitor while I'm at it.

Parthenon · Post by **Parthenon** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:25 am

One thing I've heard is that the Xbone shouldn't be compared to the PS4 or WiiU, it should be compared to Steam. Microsoft is trying to sell an infrastructure with a library of DRM filled games you can download and play from any machine using it with the same account, which requires occasional communication online to verify ownership.

People accept that from Steam already, so why not Xbone?

(Except for the fact that Steam also has non-DRM games, a much better offline system, a fuckoff huge games catalogue of past and present games and constant sales with huge reductions of prices. And most importantly, on a machine you already have for other computing needs)

So really, Xbone is trying to compete directly with Steam except a decade too late. And with motion gestures, voice recognition, much less hassle with system requirements and a bit of cloud computing thrown in.

Of course, I'll believe that if the prices start at £25 instead of £40 due to expected less secondhand sales, they make it less hassle to verify ownership and everyone suddenly magically gets competent broadband.

John Magnum · Post by **John Magnum** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:43 am

The reason Steam (and just about every other PC game) requires an online checkin to verify ownership is that it's now universal practice to not require a DVD in the tray while playing a PC game. Even if PC developers tried to buck this convention, it's a lot easier to trick your PC into thinking a DVD is in there than it is to trick your Xbox 360 into thinking it's got a game in there.

Steam gets to be viewed favorably because it comes from an environment when online check-ins are well-understood to be basically necessary because users have such command over the local environment that local verifications are extremely untrustworthy.

While it's not impossible to pirate games on modern consoles, they're still a far cry from PCs on that front. So the assessments of what DRM is appropriate because otherwise piracy would be trivial and what DRM is consumer-hostile overreach are pretty different.

There's no particular reason to accept an Xbox One-favorable framing that pits it directly against Steam instead of more natural ones that pit it against the Xbox 360 and the Playstation 4.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:43 am

Parthenon wrote:(Except for the fact that Steam also has non-DRM games, a much better offline system, a fuckoff huge games catalogue of past and present games and constant sales with huge reductions of prices. And most importantly, on a machine you already have for other computing needs)

You really kind of answered your own question, and Magnum's elaborated on why that's significant. But really, it's important to note that the Xbone loses both comparisons in a huge way.

Against the PS4, it's just straight up less functional in the way most people care.

Against Steam/PC digital distribution, it is a locked digital market (think iPhone app store vs Android - I've bought games from Steam, GOG, Impulse back before gamestop bought it, and so on) requires a dedicated device that has an expected lifetime of 4-8 years (Steam is almost a decade old now, having lasted longer than support for either of the Xbox's), more stringent use/authentication requirements, an online component that costs additional money, and so on.

No matter which competitor you want to compare it to, the loser is without doubt the Xbone. Whatever you're actually looking for, someone other than the Xbone can do a better job of giving it to you.

Parthenon · Post by **Parthenon** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:21 pm

I think it was more pointing out that people accept the DRM and regular online verification from Steam, the closed market from Apple, the cloud based single player from Diablo 3, the lack of privacy from Facebook, the constant watching what you're doing in your own home with Google Glasses, the voice activation from Siri, etc etc that they hate with the Xbone.

It's just all the bullshit in one place without enough to redeem it that's retarded, and not any individual idea. I agree that the Xbone loses in every single comparison from price, to power, to availability of games, to publisher's ease of selling, etc.

But the PS4 is doing more of the same with bigger numbers, whereas the Xbone is actually trying something different. That's interesting to see, even if it's mostly because of schadenfreude.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:00 pm

Aryxbez wrote:My concern is, affording a good PC to play games, I hear top of the line nowadays is gonna set you back $900-1200 or so..

You hardly need top of the line these days though, and as long as you build with a decent upgrade path in mind you can really spread the cost out over time. I didn't actually save money on going PC only over the course of the last console cycle--I indeed spend around $900 on my current equipment--but that money was spent in 3 manageable chunks years apart on a machine that is just plain more versatile and powerful than a console. Also, steam sales are ridiculous.

TarkisFlux · Post by **TarkisFlux** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:21 pm

The XB1 would be much less reviled if they could do two extra things with it:

[*]Let people turn off the fucking kinect or fully power down the system without pulling the plug from the wall. The inability to do this in exchange for convenience functionality is completely fucking stupid.
[*]Either require license transfers to be initiated from the originally installed console or have a license check out system that allowed you to skip the periodic check-ins in exchange for disabling their fancy online family game sharing / remote game use with your account.

Seriously, that's about it. Their actual concern with the 24 hour check-in thing is that you're going to install the game, unplug the console from the internets, and then sell your license to someone else and play the game anyway. You can get around that to some extent by just not letting people transfer the license except from the originally installed box or by letting people lock a license down to a specific box, but there are additional wrinkles based on their play anywhere and family share bits that would probably still benefit from some sort of regular check-in. But that's optional shit anyway, and people would probably be much less incensed about it.

Even then it's still way the fuck more complicated than the PS4 model (maybe, they're leaving the door open for some weird shit while laughing at MS twisting in the wind), but you can disable enough of the things that people hate without compromising on the MS license concerns that you have space to start talking up the actual interesting points of the system. And there are some I think, but you have to get past MS hubris and get them to accept that some people might want to disable the functionality they're so proud of before anyone gives two fucks.

Parthenon · Post by **Parthenon** » Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:19 am

TarkisFlux wrote:The XB1 would be much less reviled if they could do two extra things with it:

[*]Let people turn off the fucking kinect or fully power down the system without pulling the plug from the wall. The inability to do this in exchange for convenience functionality is completely fucking stupid.

You can do this. To be sold in the EU the XBone needs this capability. Lo and behold, you can actually fully turn it off. Similarly, according to some Microsoft workers you can turn the Kinect and voice detection off completely. (although I'll only believe the second after the actual release)

[*]Either require license transfers to be initiated from the originally installed console or have a license check out system that allowed you to skip the periodic check-ins in exchange for disabling their fancy online family game sharing / remote game use with your account.

Thats a bullshit suggestion. Thats like saying Alice gives a book to Bob, but for Bob to give it to Charlie, Alice needs to give it to Charlie.

And the other part doesn't actually solve the problem of being able to have the same copy on multiple xbones.

The news that the Xbone is only initially available in 21 countries is some serious bullshit though. Except won't it just mean that people will use proxies to pretend they are in another country?

TarkisFlux · Post by **TarkisFlux** » Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:33 am

Parthenon wrote:
[*]Either require license transfers to be initiated from the originally installed console or have a license check out system that allowed you to skip the periodic check-ins in exchange for disabling their fancy online family game sharing / remote game use with your account.
Thats a bullshit suggestion. Thats like saying Alice gives a book to Bob, but for Bob to give it to Charlie, Alice needs to give it to Charlie.

And the other part doesn't actually solve the problem of being able to have the same copy on multiple xbones.

Original installed system would be for each license activation. So if you really gave it to Bob (instead of just 'loaned' it with their family share thing), he could just give it to Charlie so long as he initiated the transfer from whatever system he first installed it on. But in retrospect it still doesn't work for multiple system setups because you could unplug a secondary unit and initiate the transfer and profit, so nevermind.

The other part isn't even trying to solve the multi-box no check problem. It's intended to solve the 24 hour check in bullshit for a single box, so you can take it and play without internet if you want to. I can't see how you could reasonably protect the sort of multiple install / family sharing / transient license feature set they want to push with no checks, and whether those features and transferable licenses are worth the extra crap is a discussion I'd like to have. But first they have to sort the offline use case to some degree.

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:13 pm

Guyr Adamantine wrote:And nothing of value was lost.

This isn't as true. Without something strong to compete against, Sony gets complacent and starts to suck. They even admitted as such being why the PS3 was such a long and slow disaster.

Without lots of real market competition, the consumers suffer.

TarkisFlux · Post by **TarkisFlux** » Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:00 pm

... and I just saw that MS is limiting license transfers to only once, maybe more if you use the trade in to retailer if the publisher lets you thing. And fuck that limitation. So yeah, forget the stuff I was saying before. There's too much fuckery in the details for it to be much more than a missed opportunity.

Meikle641 · Post by **Meikle641** » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:57 am

So, I reinstalled Doom 3 from my CDs and had a problem when attempting to update it. During the update it'd claim it was unable to open Doom3.exe, despite accessing the folder where it was stored. Every version update I find has the same issue. What do? I've uninstalled it, but I'm wondering if the same issue will pop up.